Curse

phan · Dec 03, 2008, 07:11 PM // 19:11

This is quite funny that people are discussing this ; dshot is godly end of story

Let's low at the benefits : it interupts ; disables ; low energy cost ; gives you the ability to time enemy spells etc ..

downsides ? : nothing lollol !1!!!&11

Orange Milk · Dec 03, 2008, 07:18 PM // 19:18

Ahhhh, read that too fast, was thinking of DChop. tottaly my failure on that post. Sad part is I was thinking "He's got to be kidding" and then posted without rereading.

Regaurdless, your still bad Meth. SF can be easily interupted, they spam it for petes sake, just time it. If your that bad take BHA and DShot because

timed Interupt > random interupt

You may loose the deactivation time because of daze, but you still get the 1/2 sec cast. But eh, I don't typically use BHA and INT SF just fine. Learn to play Meth, learn to play.

Amy Awien · Dec 03, 2008, 07:23 PM // 19:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bobby2

You don't know how to properly argue.

What you're really saying is that you can not understand it. Sorry, I don't know how to come down to your level.

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Counterproductive in the sense that the precious slot could probably have been better spent on a more powerful and relevant skill.

What more powerful and relevant skill? I've been asking for the series of damaging bow attacks that make it so difficult to spend a skill slot for D-Shot. The interesting ouch-skills are on recharges that make it pointless to pack more then two or three of them.

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Meth

... I'll stop arguing with the retard.

Tsk tsk. You're out.

The Meth · Dec 03, 2008, 07:43 PM // 19:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Orange Milk

Ahhhh, read that too fast, was thinking of DChop. tottaly my failure on that post. Sad part is I was thinking "He's got to be kidding" and then posted without rereading.

Fair enough, I retract my previous statement. lol, Dchop.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Orange Milk

Regaurdless, your still bad Meth. SF can be easily interupted, they spam it for petes sake, just time it. If your that bad take BHA and DShot because

How does interrupting SF help you kill faster? Don't run in balled up like noobs and just kill them. You don't need to shutdown SF. The groups of SF spammers will all be dead in 5-10 seconds, and wont have nearly enough time to damage you unless you decided balling up was a good idea. If you were going up against a group of SF eles who had 10000 health each and took 5 minutes to kill D-shot would be great, but they pretty much die if they come up against a strong wind.

Yes you can predict SF. I imagine every ranger could. 0.5 second cast spells are easy to catch when the enemy is using it on recharge. You can't predict WoH or similar skills that will cast in .5 seconds or less (where Dshot would be good because it helps kill) because enemies use it based on a condition (low health) instead of every time its recharged, and it may not be used in favor of the other 4-5 crappy skills the NPC has (which just means a wasted Dshot).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Orange Milk

You may loose the deactivation time because of daze, but you still get the 1/2 sec cast.

Why are you using D-shot then? Savage shot casts just as fast, can be reused, and you actually get the extra effect (not sure, someone might check), whereas the D-shots nothing other then a .5 attack time skill that lowers damage. In any case if something is important enough to warrant your elite to be spent on shutting it down you should have other physicals in your group taking it out, so its definitely gonna be interrupted without special skills.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Orange Milk

But eh, I don't typically use BHA and INT SF just fine. Learn to play Meth, learn to play.

Well, I don't interrupt SF at all and just kill them faster. You don't even need overpowered defences like SY. Unless you all stand on top of each other for several seconds or aggro 3 groups at once the damage is easy to handle.

Frozen Bacon · Dec 03, 2008, 11:24 PM // 23:24

I think another reason why D Shot is on everyone's bars is because of process of elimination. If you browse through a ranger's attack skills, you're choices are quite limited in terms of effectiveness in PvE. You're either interrupting or causing some sort of condition, with dazed being the only worthwhile condition (maybe poison but that's under WS). As far as damage goes, I'd rather leave that to the melee-ers.

So with that said, you are left with D Shot.

moriz · Dec 03, 2008, 11:31 PM // 23:31

don't know if this has been mentioned already or not, but dshot will often do more damage that savage shot, because its damage is completely armor ignoring.

The Meth · Dec 04, 2008, 12:14 AM // 00:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by moriz

don't know if this has been mentioned already or not, but dshot will often do more damage that savage shot, because its damage is completely armor ignoring.

What? Distracting shot does about 15ish damage. Savage shot does normal attack damage (which is armor affected) along with +25ish damage (which is armor ignoring). The only time Distracting shot could do more damage is if you are going up against a 300 armor enemy and MISS the interrupt. Even if savage wasnt armor ignoring you would have to be up against a HUGE amount of armor to reduce it below distracting shot's damage.

Bobby2 · Dec 04, 2008, 12:36 AM // 00:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amy Awien

What you're really saying is that you can not understand it. Sorry, I don't know how to come down to your level.

That wasn't what I was saying. Reaching my level would require providing substantial arguments.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amy Awien

What more powerful and relevant skill?

You asked this very same question some times before in this thread, and it was answered by both upier and the Meth - and that's just from the top of my head. You failed to respond to those, so I'll point you right back on track. You may thank me later.

http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...8&postcount=76
http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...6&postcount=85

So...

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

Once again - already covered

This happens to you a lot Amy. Something wrong with your short-term memory?

Amy Awien · Dec 04, 2008, 01:46 AM // 01:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bobby2

That wasn't what I was saying. Reaching my level would require providing substantial arguments.

I prefer to give quality over quantity. Repeating the same, flawed argument over and over again will not make it any less flawed.

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You asked this very same question some times before in this thread, and it was answered by both upier and the Meth

Not really, from the top of my head, Meth originally suggested to bring, ehm, yes, Throw Dirt and Mending Touch, and is trying to defend MT as adding more damage. Honestly, you can count the area's where blind is being used extensively on the fingers of one hand. Meth is defending Throw Dirt on a damage bar with the 'argument' that it's activation doesn't reduce damage, meanwhile overlooking the fact that it does use up a skill slot, which could have been put to better use. Like for Savage or D-Shot.

I can do without Mending Touch and Throw Dirt and rather take the two interrupts in their place. But then, I don't join PuGs if I need to get the job done.

You can post a bunch of PvE skills, but you can bring only 3, most of them do cost 10E (the one 5E isn't so hot) - which will use up a big chunk of your energy.

Although there are various suitable damage skills, 3 is more then enough, even Meth sees that. There is just no need to bring many attack skills as most of what we can bring has a short recharge. Bringing more then two or three will result in unused skills. Why is that so hard to understand?

So, we have 3 PvE skills, a prep, two pure damage attacks and two interrupts.

valence · Dec 04, 2008, 04:01 AM // 04:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amy Awien

So, we have 3 PvE skills, a prep, two pure damage attacks and two interrupts.

What do you want to interrupt with your interrupts where they actually matter? Name a skill in areas you must interrupt whereas plain damage would not win over it. This is the main question of the topic you failed to answer. So far your logic is: I got nothing else to bring, therefor I bring savage and dshot.

When I pve I have both dshot and savage on my bar. I like them, but am the first one to admit they are shit in HM. In NM sure you can interrupt, but it wont speed up anything, nor safe you from anything. PvE is designed to beat mob after mob, disabling skills is just not what works in these designs.

Anyone claiming they can actually interrupt in HM on reaction would be the god of interrupts. You would interrupt more by taking meteor shower and cast it on a monk ^^.

Bobby2 · Dec 04, 2008, 04:58 AM // 04:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amy Awien

So, we have 3 PvE skills, a prep, two pure damage attacks and two interrupts.

This is the absolute closest you have ever come to actually posting a build of yours.

That said, I heard stances were good.

upier · Dec 04, 2008, 07:13 AM // 07:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Meth

What? Distracting shot does about 15ish damage. Savage shot does normal attack damage (which is armor affected) along with +25ish damage (which is armor ignoring). The only time Distracting shot could do more damage is if you are going up against a 300 armor enemy and MISS the interrupt. Even if savage wasnt armor ignoring you would have to be up against a HUGE amount of armor to reduce it below distracting shot's damage.

Actually - despite S-Shot being an action interrupt, it's +damage only applies when interrupting a spell. So considering you'd get no +damage when interrupting something like Defensive Anthem - and the additional para armour reducing the base bow damage - it's a more common then you pointed out.
The reason why I never saw this a much of an issue is because I normally want spellcasters dead first. They die easily because of lower armour and, because of their support GW function, they can mess up the plan of killing more easily. The weapon mastery guys can be just distracted by something like Aegis/Weakness so there is no issue in letting them live for a bit longer. And when you want spellcasters dead first - the +damage on interrupting spells would work favorably with that plan.

Fay Vert · Dec 04, 2008, 10:51 AM // 10:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Meth

Wall to wall lack of comprehension simply because you choose not to

You consistanty demonstrate not only your lack of basic comprehension skills, but also your lack of GW knowledge. Stop sucking so bad.

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Meth

What? Distracting shot does about 15ish damage. Savage shot does normal attack damage (which is armor affected) along with +25ish damage (which is armor ignoring). The only time Distracting shot could do more damage is if you are going up against a 300 armor enemy and MISS the interrupt. Even if savage wasnt armor ignoring you would have to be up against a HUGE amount of armor to reduce it below distracting shot's damage.

More ignorance on display, every post is full of your junk! Try 100 armour. Do you even know how armour works in Guild Wars? DShot will also do its damage regardless of Marksmanship.

Having said that, I don't think anyone takes DShot for the damage

The Meth · Dec 04, 2008, 03:43 PM // 15:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fay Vert

You consistanty demonstrate not only your lack of basic comprehension skills, but also your lack of GW knowledge. Stop sucking so bad.

Because insulting a post is better then actually pointing out a problem with it. Also, at least when I insult a post I consistently try to spell words correctly, lest I make a greater fool of myself.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fay Vert

More ignorance on display, every post is full of your junk! Try 100 armour. Do you even know how armour works in Guild Wars? DShot will also do its damage regardless of Marksmanship.

If that wasn't an obvious exaggeration I don't know what is. The point is against any reasonable armor value distracting does less damage then even a regular arrow attack. If you want a realistically calculated value, here we go.

Even against a 100 armor target distracting does less then base arrow damage. You would have to go up against about 150 armor for your average arrow shot damage to be less then distracting. I know quite well how damage is calculated. Base arrow damage is 15-28, so average of 21.5 without critical hits. Assuming a critical hit rate of 20%, we have an average damage of about 26 per shot. Add in +20% and +15% mods, along with between 7 and 15% extra damage due to weapon mastery beyond 12, we have 38 to 41 average damage per hit. Against even a 100 armor enemy (why the hell are you shooting warriors btw?) your base attack damage does about 20 damage per hit. The break even point for weapon damage will end up at about 120-130ish armor. So distracting will never beat even an auto attack for damage in all reasonable situations.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fay Vert

Having said that, I don't think anyone takes DShot for the damage

I do hope so, but the post I responded to said otherwise.

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

Actually - despite S-Shot being an action interrupt, it's +damage only applies when interrupting a spell. So considering you'd get no +damage when interrupting something like Defensive Anthem - and the additional para armour reducing the base bow damage - it's a more common then you pointed out.
The reason why I never saw this a much of an issue is because I normally want spellcasters dead first. They die easily because of lower armour and, because of their support GW function, they can mess up the plan of killing more easily. The weapon mastery guys can be just distracted by something like Aegis/Weakness so there is no issue in letting them live for a bit longer. And when you want spellcasters dead first - the +damage on interrupting spells would work favorably with that plan.

Not really, as I said above even at 100 AL you do more damage then distracting, but I understand that savage doesn't give extra damage on skills. I was assuming noone was going to actually use savage shot to interrupt non-spell skills. Anyone suggesting to take savage so that they can interrupt a warrior is a total failure. Amazingly, BHA is also a bad skill when used on warriors. We don't care though, because noone in their right mind would use it as such.

moriz · Dec 04, 2008, 03:55 PM // 15:55

100+ AL is fairly common in pve content. especially in hardmode, where your average caster monster will have 100AL easily.

and in case you didn't notice, people can use dshot/savage shot for damage as well. they often score kills, because of the faster release.

The Meth · Dec 04, 2008, 04:04 PM // 16:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by moriz

100+ AL is fairly common in pve content. especially in hardmode, where your average caster monster will have 100AL easily.

What? Casters with over 100 armor? Total BS, the average caster in HM will have 70-80ish armor, with 90 being very high end. Any time your damage is reduced by half or more (showing they have 100 armor or greater) it was because you were using water damage on ice imps or something. I doubt that there is a single caster class enemy in the game that has 100 base armor, if you find one please tell me. Maybe something in HM DoA (only done that 2 times or so), but just about everywhere else I am quite certain armor is under 100.

Quote:

Originally Posted by moriz

and in case you didn't notice, people can use dshot/savage shot for damage as well. they often score kills, because of the faster release.

Only in PvP when spiking (and they still don't waste their precious Dshot, but maybe savage). In PvE you DPS, and an attack that takes half as long to use yet also does half normal damage does not add DPS, it just takes up skill slot space. There are plenty of actual attack skills that have reduced shot time and actually add damage, not take away.

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

In which case you are back to two interrupts.
If you aren't going to use the most of your skill - which also means throwing that S-Shot on non-spellcasters if it's worth interrupting - you might as well not bring it.
If I see DA going up and I only have one interrupt and that interrupt is S-Shot - I'll use it despite the fact that I'll miss out on the bonus damage. With it's nice recharge - it doesn't make sense not to.

Yeah, but once again, .5 second cast time in HM (sorry guys, only the PvP version is 2s, lol PvE-PvP split actually making interrupting worse). And it's probably going to be even harder to interrupt then a caster, since you aren't going to be focusing on the paragon. Of course I agree that if you have an available interrupt to use and there is a decent skill to be interrupted it would be foolish not to use it, but bringing an interrupt with the purpose of shutting down non casters is dumb. Now, if DA was a 1s cast in HM like Aegis or even a .75s cast that would be skill #2 that is specifically worth bringing an interrupt for in PvE HM.

upier · Dec 04, 2008, 04:30 PM // 16:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Meth

Not really, as I said above even at 100 AL you do more damage then distracting, but I understand that savage doesn't give extra damage on skills. I was assuming noone was going to actually use savage shot to interrupt non-spell skills. Anyone suggesting to take savage so that they can interrupt a warrior is a total failure. Amazingly, BHA is also a bad skill when used on warriors. We don't care though, because noone in their right mind would use it as such.

In which case you are back to two interrupts.
If you aren't going to use the most of your skill - which also means throwing that S-Shot on non-spellcasters if it's worth interrupting - you might as well not bring it.
If I see DA going up and I only have one interrupt and that interrupt is S-Shot - I'll use it despite the fact that I'll miss out on the bonus damage. With it's nice recharge - it doesn't make sense not to.

Orange Milk · Dec 04, 2008, 08:23 PM // 20:23

Meth, you have again proven you have no idea how to use DShot.

You don't know how to find priority targets. DA NEEDS to be interupted in order for your "Me kill fast moar damage" to take place. Just about every mob you meet up with has a priority to interupt, it's a shame you don't know that. My guess is if you face a mob with a DA para you let him cast it and stand there getting a "block" every other attack until your opponent is dead. Slower than how it could have gone down with a simple DShot of DA, but hey your a simple guy you don't care about that. All you know is "Him Die, me get nother mob" So in the next mob your H/H bunch and die via SF spam because to you its not a good idea to interupt that. Eventully you kill the mob rez the dead and move on claiming to be an Alighty God of PvE because things died, Sure they didn't die the optimal way, but hey they are dead dead right, cause everyone takes 2 hours to do Fort Ranik in NM it's no big deal to go in unprepared.

@ Upier

Your DSlasher build is why I'm not a fan of SY on a Ranger UNLESS he's a barrager, SY is done much better on a Warrior or Para and that's where I would put it when setting up an optimal team build for an area.

upier · Dec 04, 2008, 09:13 PM // 21:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Orange Milk

@ Upier

Your DSlasher build is why I'm not a fan of SY on a Ranger UNLESS he's a barrager, SY is done much better on a Warrior or Para and that's where I would put it when setting up an optimal team build for an area.

If you are building an optimal team build - then the ranger won't be a part of it. Other classes just provide more damage and more shutdown.
But when running around with h/h - I don't see any reason why SY! would not be included. Even if not running Barrage. It does wonders for those few secs that will be up - even if it isn't chained.
It's too good to not abuse it if you can.

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Meth

Yeah, but once again, .5 second cast time in HM (sorry guys, only the PvP version is 2s, lol PvE-PvP split actually making interrupting worse). And it's probably going to be even harder to interrupt then a caster, since you aren't going to be focusing on the paragon. Of course I agree that if you have an available interrupt to use and there is a decent skill to be interrupted it would be foolish not to use it, but bringing an interrupt with the purpose of shutting down non casters is dumb. Now, if DA was a 1s cast in HM like Aegis or even a .75s cast that would be skill #2 that is specifically worth bringing an interrupt for in PvE HM.

Ohh, I thought you were completely anti-S-Shot-on-non-spells.
Yeah, I agree.

The Meth · Dec 04, 2008, 10:10 PM // 22:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

If you are building an optimal team build - then the ranger won't be a part of it. Other classes just provide more damage and more shutdown.
But when running around with h/h - I don't see any reason why SY! would not be included. Even if not running Barrage. It does wonders for those few secs that will be up - even if it isn't chained.
It's too good to not abuse it if you can..

I agree that the best build is almost definitely an SY spam build (and that goes for just about every physical class). But its rather, umm... unhealthy to end every discussion of builds with "lulz its not as good as SY". The point that should be made is that not only does SY help the group more then interrupting will ever accomplish, but so does normal things like Aegis, Ward against Melee, and Enfeebling blood. Passive AoE/party wide defenses are almost always going to be better then single target active defenses in PvE, especially with the half cast time crap.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Orange Milk

Meth, you have again proven you have no idea how to use DShot.

You don't know how to find priority targets. DA NEEDS to be interupted in order for your "Me kill fast moar damage" to take place. Just about every mob you meet up with has a priority to interupt, it's a shame you don't know that. My guess is if you face a mob with a DA para you let him cast it and stand there getting a "block" every other attack until your opponent is dead. Slower than how it could have gone down with a simple DShot of DA, but hey your a simple guy you don't care about that.

Again, if you could consistently interrupt a .5 cast skill cold (ie when the enemy isn't spamming/using it regularly), then you are the best ranger in the game. The problem is you can't interrupt .5s cast skills with a ranger. I consider myself a good ranger and I can't interrupt anything under .75 seconds unless they follow a pattern of some sort, and I am quite sure you can't. If you can't consistently interrupt the skill then your interrupt is worthless. Like I said, if DA was .75 or 1s cast I would totally agree with you about interrupting it (though, I can't think of any place DA is actually a problem in PvE, so Dshot would only better in theory, not practice. All I can recall using DA is those stupid para only groups in nightfall that die in 10 seconds anyway).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Orange Milk

All you know is "Him Die, me get nother mob" So in the next mob your H/H bunch and die via SF spam because to you its not a good idea to interrupt that.

Funny, I've never died to SF even without any interrupts at all. Maybe its just because I don't suck? Maybe I can figure out why you would die against SF, let me read that again.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Orange Milk

All you know is "Him Die, me get nother mob" So in the next mob your H/H bunch and die via SF spam because to you its not a good idea to interrupt that.

Oh shit! I think I've found your problem!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Orange Milk

Eventully you kill the mob rez the dead and move on claiming to be an Alighty God of PvE because things died, Sure they didn't die the optimal way, but hey they are dead dead right, cause everyone takes 2 hours to do Fort Ranik in NM it's no big deal to go in unprepared.

Just meaningless babble that you conjured up to pretend actually happened to me.